ABC Perth radio interview with Jules Kim, the CEO of the Scarlett Alliance, about Joan who was a sex worker and ran brothels in Perth in the 1940s to 50s.
In 1988, Chris Jefferey interviewed Joan about her life for the State Library of Western Australia's oral history collection, which she wanted to be released only after her death. Joan's colourful life came to an end in 1994. You can listen to Joan's interviews by searching the State Library catalogue for OH1978.
The Madam
The below story about Joan's remarkable life is from the State Library's Facebook page. Follow us for more tales of Western Australia's fascinating history.
Joan was born in 1912. The daughter of an assayer in the tin mines and an only child.
She did not remember much of her early life, except that she left Tasmania for Sydney when she was fifteen to live with her aunt. She worked as a waitress and at 17 years old met her first husband.
They had no children and were married for fourteen years, during which time Joan became a professional prostitute. She couldn’t remember why – “It was just one of those things.”
Joan’s occupation took her to Little Lonsdale Street in Melbourne. Then during the war in 1941 to Hay Street in Kalgoorlie. Her husband accompanied her to Western Australia and worked as a barman.
Joan’s work was very busy on the pay weekends – up to twenty clients a night – mostly miners and men working on the wood line. It was very quiet on the off times. Ten shillings for half an hour, a pound for an hour.
When interviewed in 1988, Joan remembered the house as being “very nice, very comfortable, carpets, comfortable beds, very clean. There was a housemaid. You visited the doctor. There was everything that was needed, just like an ordinary home, a comfortable home.”
Her madam’s name was Kathleen.
Prostitutes were a little bit ostracised in Kalgoorlie, and there was no time for leisure.
“We couldn’t go anywhere. It was just all work and no play. You weren’t allowed in the hotels, you weren’t allowed to go to the movies. You weren’t allowed to go out in public, except shopping. The only pleasure was to read.”
So, after a few months, Joan was ready to go somewhere else - Perth. Here her husband found work as a radio operator.
After a much needed month’s holiday, Joan set out to find herself a job. In 1941 there were about ten houses and ten madams in Perth and after applying at several houses, she went to work for a woman called Mary on Roe Street.
The house was similar to the one in Kalgoorlie, just older.
“It had one, two, three, four, about five rooms (one for each of the girls). There was a housemaid, laundress, night-woman, yardman and a cook."
Joan, who was now 30 years old, got on well with the other girls, and Mary was a "good boss".
An average day was breakfast about 9am, then work would start at 10am when the brothel opened. Lunch was from 12 noon to 1.30pm. Work again until 5.30pm. Work again until 1am or 2am in the morning, and sometimes all night. Joan worked long hours.
“The average girl would work possibly just the night shift, but I was greedy.”
When a client arrived, he would choose the girl of his choice and pay the fee in advance. "Then you examined him, washed him, had intercourse, washed him again and washed yourself.”
A girl always had the right to refuse any man if she didn't like the look of him or had reason to be nervous when she examined him. She'd simply give him back his money.
According to Joan contraception was rarely used. “It didn’t seem to be necessary, grass doesn’t grow on a well-worn track (laughter)”. Some girls brought their own “French letters”, but men were not expected to use them. Though sometimes they wanted to, particularly if they were married.
Ten shillings, a pound, two pounds for an hour. Five pounds for the night. Fifty percent to the girl. Fifty percent to the madam.
Joan worked for about a year at Mary’s, then was approached by a man to run a house. She met the madam and was given a house at the far western end of Roe Street until the war ended.
Joan looked after four girls aged from about 24 to 46 years (the minimum age was 21). Later on, when she had two houses, she looked after eleven. Some girls were married, some were separated, some had children to support. Most came from the eastern states. All were in it for the money.
“The money was it. The money was everything.”
The girls were known by nom de plumes to remain anonymous, and they didn’t live in the house, as it would have been “a little dangerous”.
There were a lot of convoys going through Perth during the war years. According to Joan when the New Zealand convoys came, they caused a great deal of trouble - "get half drunk and go crazy". The brothels on Roe Street would close!
The rest of them, the Americans, English, Malays, Chinese and Dutch “were alright”. It was quite a diverse mix, but their sexual practices were "all about the same" and all the men "just glad to see a woman".
Now and again an (American) aircraft carrier would arrive in Fremantle - "Boy that was business. We were dead when they were gone!”.
Joan’s dealings with Beaufort Street police were always good and cooperative. Although prostitution was illegal, it was tolerated, and Joan was a born diplomat.
She was also proud of her girls. When clients came in, they would arrange themselves round the lounge room in outfits chosen by Joan.
“I had them in strapless bras and little frilly pants, and by gee they looked nice, they looked lovely. I picked out those clothes myself."
Quite a few of Joan's girls married farmers and moved to the country, and as time went by, people’s attitudes to brothels became better, as there was more tolerance of sex in general.
On VJ (Victory over Japan Day), Joan left for London. She started in the same business, only it was street walking round Piccadilly. She divorced her first husband and re-married a French Canadian. They moved to Canada but never had any money and Joan went back to being a call girl.
Eventually they returned to Western Australia. Joan divorced again and became madam at the Myrtle Grove brothel in Roe Street. Girls would often leave when a new madam came in, so Joan finished up with only two girls and worked herself.
“I made more money that winter than the first madam had made all summer with five girls!”
In 1958 all the houses in Roe Street were forced to close. Many of the girls went back over east, and Joan was out of it, "finished”.
Progressively the houses were knocked down, leaving little trace of the street’s colourful past.
For Joan prostitution had simply become a way of life..
"There was money, there was a lot of humour, which you don’t get in any other life. You never knew who was going to come into the house. It was interesting. You met a lot of people from different walks of life. In fact, when the street closed that was the only thing I missed about it. I missed the public. That’s about all really.”
Joan’s colourful life came to an end in 1994, after which time she agreed that her story be shared.
Source - Interview with Mrs J.E. St Louis by Chris Jeffery.
Oral History dated 1988. Available at online. Call number: OH1978
Transcript
BEGINNING OF INTERVIEW
Christine: So, prostitution is said to be the oldest profession in the world. Although here in WA it’s still isn’t legal and I’m told over the years, the industry hasn’t really changed that much.
Joan was a sex worker who ran brothels in Perth back in the late 1940s. She was interviewed back in 1988 by the State Library about her time working in Kalgoorlie and here in Perth.
Here is a piece from that interview talking about the hours she would work.
(Recording)
Joan: “And I would start work about 10…
Interviewer: Is this when the brothel opened?
Joan: That’s right, yes. We would have lunch about 12:30 to 1:30, work again until 5:30, work again until 1 or 2 in the morning and sometimes an all-night customer. The average girl would work possibly just the night shift and the all-night shift. But I was greedy [laughs].
Interviewer: Well you wanted to earn some money.
Joan: Well, what was the good of being there, if I wasn’t going to earn money.
Interviewer: That’s right.”
(recording ends)
Christine: [Laughs] Greedy. [Sigh] I don’t think you were Joan. Joining us now to tell us the history of Joan is Jules Kim, Chief Executive Officer of the Scarlet Alliance of Australian Sex Workers Association and she’s been a sex worker for 30 years. Hello Jules.
JK: Hi, great to be here.
Christine: Thank you for coming on. Tell us about Joan. Where did she grow up?
JK: Well Joan, was somebody who actually was born in Tasmania and then travelled to Sydney, got married and then after 14 years of marriage, decided to start sex working.
Christine: 14 years of marriage?
JK: Yeah, absolutely and that’s quite…you know that’s still quite common. I think people have a misconception that sex workers don’t have partners or aren’t married, but it’s not that unusual.
Christine: Right, so do we know what her motivation was at the time Jules?
JK: Well she herself said, “It was just one of those things.” I think after 14 years of marriage and she was by that stage 31, she probably wanted a bit of excitement, make a bit of extra money…
Christine: And so how did she…
JK: …different for her…
Christine: How did she go about starting? I mean how did she start out in the industry?
JK: Well, at the time, Hay Street was a very active…in Kalgoorlie…was very active sex work district. Quite famously one of the more famous areas, with a number of brothels lining Hay Street and even under the…at the time they had a containment policy, where certain areas were tolerated even though it was still illegal. So, at that time she walked into one of the places, she worked for a female boss and most of the bosses were actually run by women who might have been sex workers themselves previously and Joan said she was a good boss and decided to work there. They were very comfortable beds, there was good food, there was a housemaid, there was a doctor visited her regularly and had everything that she needed. So, she decided to work there.
Christine: Wow, they sound like good working conditions. What year was this, Jules?
JK: This was in 1941.
Christine: Yes. 1941. And what do we know about her career after that?
JK: Well after that, so she recalls that there was like 10 houses and… in Perth and she applied at several houses, went to work on Roe Street or at the time it was called ‘Rue-de-Roe’ which was also another famous area under the containment policy in Perth and she was working there and then after a period of time, she decided that she would herself run a place. So she ended up… she said that she looked after four girls aged between 24 to 46 and later on, she ended up having two houses and looked after 11 workers.
Christine: Wow. So how much time was there between her moving to Kalgoorlie and starting out and then running businesses herself Jules?
JK: Oh look, she’d been working as a sex worker for a number of years and then it seems like later on in her life she did go to London and then Canada and then continued working and then decided…
Christine: Wow.
JK: Yes, and then basically decided that she wanted to go back to being, she married, she divorced her first husband, remarried a French-Canadian and she was quite broke at the time in Canada and at that time she decided that she would go back to being a sex worker.
Christine: Wow, in London and in Canada. So, did she have any friends in the industry that she was travelling with? Did she find work straight away? What was it like back then Jules?
JK: Well it sounds like with, for Joan, she was married and then divorced and then remarried so it wasn’t that she was travelling by herself or she was with her husband or her new husband and it was in that context that she chose to… to sex work.
Christine: Yes, right. It is nearly 20 minutes past 2. Jules Kim is my guest, Chief Executive Officer of the Scarlet Alliance of Australian Sex Workers. We’re talking about Joan, for whom we don’t have a surname, but we certainly have amazing recordings that have not been heard because she did these on the proviso that they only be aired after she died. Is that right Jules?
JK: Mmmm, yes and not surprising with the level of stigma. I mean unfortunately, that has not changed at all. There’s a lot of stigma there and there’s still a lot of stigma now, so I can understand… you know Joan was proud of her work and her history and as she said, she made good money and… 1958 she came back to WA and had a house but only had two workers there, so decided to work there herself and she said that she made more money that winter than she had made all summer with 5 workers. So she did very well for herself and she was obviously enjoyed her work and she described herself as a good time, there was good money, there was a lot of humour which you don’t get in any other area of life and you never know who was going to come into the house. It was interesting, there was always something different with people from different walks of life. So I think she was proud of her life and…but I think the stigma stopped her from being prepared to share that while she was alive.
Christine: Yes, that’s such a shame. And she mentioned that she was greedy, but she obviously had a good work ethic. I mean how well sex workers treated by the community back then? Could they go where they liked or were there restrictions? You mentioned the containment areas. What if she needed to go down to the shops for example?
JK: Well look and I think that’s often the case and particularly when she was in Kalgoorlie because everyone knows everyone and particularly at that time. So, it wasn’t, she felt like that she couldn’t go to the movies or she couldn’t go to the bar and you might be surprised to hear this, but in fact we still have laws in place in WA that states under the Liquor Control Act that states, “It’s an offence to commit a reputed prostitute to remain on the licence premises” and you can be fined up to $10,000.
Christine: [Shock] Woah!
JK: [Chuckles] Now, there’s no record of this law being used since 2000 but they’re still on the books and they still can be used.
Christine: Wow, I had no idea. Ok, the Liquor Control Act. That is really interesting. Ok, let’s go back to Joan. So look, how much would she have been making? Did she ever disclose, Jules? You mentioned that she had a good winter. What were times like back then?
JK: Look, she didn’t talk about the amount of money that she made, but she did talk about the arrangements that were in place and it’s interesting, it’s really interesting to read because it hasn’t changed much. She spoke about having, the first place that she worked. She got 50% and the house got 50% and that’s quite standard and I think people think that that’s… are surprised to hear that, because perhaps in other workplaces that might seem like wow, the house is keeping a lot, but you have to understand that you’re getting the infrastructure, security, advertising, often housed and food and the premises upkeep and cleaning and so it’s… you get… it’s quite standard still in the industry for the worker to only receive I guess between 70 to 50%.
Christine: Yes right, that’s good to know. I was going to ask what it’s like now. So, she came back to Perth in 1958. Yes, what happened after that? What was life like?
JK: Well she, in [19]58 she said that in Roe Street, that the places were forced to close at that time and by that time… at the time, many of the workers went back to the East coast but Joan decided that that was it for her and that she was finished. So, by that stage, and my maths isn’t great, but… I think she was…[laughs].
Christine: So she did that oral history? She did the oral history 30 years after she closed?
JK: Yes.
Christine: Then did she work at all after 58?
JK: No. I think she decided, yes, when she got to 50, in her late forties that that was it for her.
Christine: Yes, right. Do you know why?
JK: No, she doesn’t, she didn’t share that why but she did say… you know, like she did see… progressively places were being closed down and that I guess by that stage…
Christine: Was there a societal expectation that you be young to be a sex worker or were all ages accepted at that point?
JK: Absolutely, and that’s another myth in the industry. People kind of expect that everyone is really young. But even Joan, she didn’t start until she was in her thirties and it’s still quite common for people to not start work… also workers that don’t start until they’re in their fifties and Joan at that time too had people working for her that were in their… between the ages of twenty to fifty. So, it is a very broad and diverse age range and a diverse industry as it was back then and as it is now.
Christine: Yes, interesting. So, the thirty years after that, did she retire? Did she travel? What do we know Jules?
JK: Look, unfortunately she doesn’t talk about that in her oral history. She pretty much sums it up with, “That’s about all” really. She missed it but I think when the street closed, and you have to understand as well that even though there was that sort of tolerance policy and the containment policy which basically wasn’t lifted… the unofficial law was lifted in 2000, but part of harassment and the fact that you work in an illegal sector that is really stigmatised and discriminated against, is something that you have to manage and deal with.
Christine: Yes, you’d have to have a really thick skin. Yes, when did she pass away Jules? What do we know?
JK: Yes, so her life came to an end in 1994 and that was at that time where she agreed that once she passed away that her story could be shared.
Christine: Wow, 1994. And how did you know her Jules?
JK: I didn’t know her actually. I found out about her through Charles at the State Library in Western Australia, and I was very surprised to hear how… when she actually made her oral history available, I was so surprised at how many similarities there still are in the industry.
Christine: Yeah wow. What else stood out to you listening back to that audio Jules?
JK: I think, yeah, I mean… in a lot of ways at how little has changed and also there’s a lot that has changed. But unfortunately, as you say, in WA despite the long and colourful history, it does still… and Western… sex work is part of Western Australia’s folklore, but the industry is still criminalised.
Christine: It’s so taboo to talk about…you know what’s really interesting. At the very start of our Omicron outbreak, the positive cases actually started in places where that was reportedly happening and it was just… it was just the most awkward time because people want to talk about it, they didn’t want to talk about. Should we talk about it? What is going on? And I ended up speaking to your union; to the Australian Sex Workers Association about this; about workers being exposed and the fact that we should talk about it, and it was… it’s a shame I guess that we can’t speak more openly about these things.
What would you like to change Jules?
JK: Yes, so the Scarlet Alliance is the Australian Sex Workers Association. So we are… it was one of those situations. We have done research just last year and there’s… with the Centre for Social Research and Health and so little has changed. 96% of sex workers were still reporting experiencing stigma and discrimination on a regular basis and unfortunately the general public… almost two thirds of the general public had stated that they would treat somebody negatively because they are a sex worker. We really, you know, I think all workers deserve to feel safe at work. All workers are entitled to workplace health and safety, and I think sex workers, like everybody else, have rights as workers and that’s what people need to understand. Sex working is work and has been work for a very, very long time.
Christine: And legalising it would go a long way to helping protect your workers I’m guessing.
JK: Well, decriminalising is what we want because when sex workers decriminalise, it’s treated like other businesses. So, I think people misunderstand and think it means ‘no regulation’ but when it’s decriminalised, there’s a lot more regulation because it actually has to abide by regulations, that have the same rights and responsibilities as other workers and other workplaces.
Christine: Well Jules it’s been really good to speak to you. Thank you for sharing the story of Joan and have a great weekend.
JK: You too, thanks very much.
Christine: Jules Kim, CEO of the Scarlet Alliance, talking about Joan and that is all we know her as. She was a prostitute back in the late forties through to 1958. She travelled. She worked in Kalgoorlie, Perth, London, Canada, and she left this extended oral history which you can hear at the State Library.
END OF INTERVIEW
